Leigh Howell In today’s episode, Audra sits down with Leigh, a family practitioner turned entrepreneur, and mom of three teenage boys. Leigh
In this engaging episode, Audra chats with Roger Williams, a bucket list expert and podcast host, about the importance of living an authentic life and exploring one’s purpose. They discuss Roger’s life-changing health scare, how it inspired him to pursue his passions, and the lessons he learned from it. Roger shares his insights on navigating entrepreneurship, learning new skills, and the value of having conversations with supportive, like-minded people.
Roger Williams is an author, podcaster, adventurer, and Head Crosser-Offer of his bucket list.
After more than 30 years working in the youth development/teaching field, a year in quarantine, and two heart attacks, Roger embarked on an adult gap year to prioritize a life in which he finds his own personal joy through living out his bucket list and inspires others to do the same.
In 2022 he completed a three month journey traveling around the world to cross items off his bucket list and shares what he has learned with others on the Crossing It Off the Bucket List podcast and his book, Live Out Your List: Finding Joy Through A Bucket List Lifestyle.
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** What follows is an AI-generated transcript, which may not be 100% accurate.
[00:00:38] Welcome back to another episode with, mess In the Middle. Today I’ve got Roger from Seattle. That almost sounds like a radio. It’s Roger from Seattle. and today we’re gonna get into some of the things that he’s working on and how he’s showing up in our universe. without further ado, I’m gonna welcome Roger in and let him talk a little bit about himself.
[00:00:59] So please, share your story a little bit. thanks
[00:01:01] Roger: Audra, I appreciate being here. it’s a pleasure and I hope that we have a great conversation. I know we’re gonna have a great conversation. so thanks for having me. I like many people, was expecting 2020 to be like any other year.
[00:01:13] But for me it was my 50th birthday and I had a ton of plans. Like most Americans, I would say that, 95% of us have a bucket list or think we have a bucket list in our head. But when you really look at the statistics, 40% of those people actually have it written down or do something about it. And that was me.
[00:01:31] I had this, all these things I wanted to do in my head and I thought, oh, my 50th birthday, great time to start crossing things off my list. [00:01:40] And we all know what happened in 2020. A lot of those, most of those things did not happen. And, I was dealing with, just thinking about my mortality, who I was, where I was showing up in the world, and how I was showing up in the world.
[00:01:54] And just really thinking about those things. And at the end of 2020, after having not such a great year for my 50th birthday, I wound up having a heart attack. And so that conversation in my head about where I found myself worth and how I was showing up in the world got accelerated greatly. And Oh my gosh.
[00:02:13] I bet. Yeah. And so part of it for me was I wanted to not procrastinate on doing the things that would bring me joy.. And so I began my bucket list journey by going to all my social media accounts and changing my job title to being the head crosser off of my bucket list. Oh, nice. Okay. And a lot of that had to do with the fact that, when we meet new people for the first time, we always ask at least here, what do you do?
[00:02:39] Audra: What do you do? Yep.
[00:02:41] Roger: And most times outta 10, it’s gonna be, where do I sell my labor? Who do I sell it to, and how do I sell my labor? And I just didn’t want that to be the conversation anymore for me. Good. And so I wanted to be able to say, I crossed things off my bucket list and I wanted to mean that and to actually do that.
[00:02:58] And so something that had been on my list for almost 11 years. walking the Camino des Santiago in Spain, which is like a 590, mile track across northern Spain that you walk for about 31 years.
[00:03:09] Audra: Yeah. You’re gonna go for it, right? Yeah. that it wasn’t heart attack or not.
[00:03:13] Roger: Yeah. It was it for me because I, I’m an Aquarius.
[00:03:16] And admittedly, I have a 10,000, million dollar ideas a day, and [00:03:20] my follow through has been lackluster my whole entire
[00:03:23] Audra: life. And so I think that’s a definition of entrepreneur. I don’t know about just Aquarius.
[00:03:28] Roger: I gotta put it someplace, yeah. Yeah. so for me, doing something that big, taking a month off or so off of work and spending the money to travel and.
[00:03:39] Walking that physical distance, and challenging myself, not just physically, but mentally and being able to complete it was huge for me. Like I had to do that big thing. Wow. To be able to say, I can do this. I not, I’m alive, can do this. Yeah. Yeah. Not only I do this, but I can do whatever it is that I think will bring me joy and
[00:03:59] Right before I went on that trip, I started a podcast. Did a couple episodes. I figured, if I’m feeling this way, maybe some other people are feeling this way. And if we can tell some bucket list stories, of people crossing things off their list, maybe we can encourage and engage people and doing that on a regular basis and not just waiting until that moment when that’s the door.
[00:04:19] Yeah. Yeah. When things look bleak. And so I started that podcast, went on the. put it on the shelf for a couple months. And when I came back from that trip, I, went into the office for the first time in, several years. and, someone that was very close to me in the office who I’d known for about four and a half years, said, Hey, how was your trip?
[00:04:37] And I showed her this reel that I had made for Instagram that was just selfies of all the different people that I had met along the way, just me and other people. And she watched it and she handed me back my phone and she said, I’ve never seen you that happy before. Aw. Yeah. And it was twofold, right?
[00:04:55] The first, yeah. My first thought was, oh, I’m so glad she could see how [00:05:00] happy I was cuz I was, it was one of the best things I’ve ever done for myself. It awesome. I had the great time, met tons of new people, and so I was glad that she could see that on the other side of that. Was, oh my gosh, we’ve been working together for four and a half years and you’ve never seen me that happy.
[00:05:17] I don’t want anyone to meet me and not see me that happy. And being that person. And so about a month later, wow. I quit my job and my career of 30 plus years in youth development and teaching and decided that I was. Take some call or career break. I called an adult gap year and just said, I’m gonna do things that make me happy.
[00:05:38] So I restarted the podcast and, just got really engaged in it and fell in love with the process of storytelling. so much so that now I’ve got a second podcast and I’m starting to produce a third, that’ll be out July. Nice. And it’s just really become, part of my passion.
[00:05:56] Taking the things that I’m most interested in and putting them out to the world and sharing them with people. So that’s, then I’ve also written a book and then the process of writing another book. And so I’m just enjoying where I’m at and trying to right size everything as I go and, okay. I’m loving life.
[00:06:15] Audra: That’s awesome. so not a direct route to entrepreneurship, but you still ended up there. Now, during your career time, did you ever think of spinning out on your own, or that really wasn’t
[00:06:26] Roger: yeah. I’ve attempted several times. Okay. I said it’s my query side, my entrepreneurial side, yes. Of using.
[00:06:35] YouTube trying to figure out a couple different ways to do shows on YouTube, but nothing ever really panned out. [00:06:40] And part of that, I think it was because it wasn’t my passion Yeah. the things that I was doing. Yeah. So when I found something that I was really interested in, made it a whole lot easier to branch out and to say, okay, I’m gonna do this.
[00:06:53] And part of it. For me that first year of podcasting was, I, everything I’ve ever seen on YouTube and read online said, you gotta be consistent. So right when I started back up, I said, I’m gonna do 52 weeks straight, no breaks, and be as consistent as possible. And that’s just not normal for me.
[00:07:10] That was something that I had to overcome and I had to say, okay, I’m gonna do this. I’m gonna do this. And there were days that it was rough. Now that show I produced two episodes a week, which is Wow. Which is a lot of work. It is a lot of work, but it’s super fun and good. I enjoy it. Good. And coming up on my hundredth episode, so I’m really excited about
[00:07:30] Audra: that.
[00:07:30] Congratulations. That is awesome. What a great story. And that leads into so many different things. and if I ask something that’s too personal, then just tell me not to, let’s explore it in another way. But going from a full-time job that you said you were teaching and then going out on your own, did you need to consider the financial aspects of it?
[00:07:52] Or you’ve, I’ve got a little nest egg, I’ve got retirement or whatever I can, I have the ability to focus on what I wanna focus.
[00:08:00] Roger: Yeah, that was essentially, the call was to, okay, whatever it took to make that year happen was what I wanted to do. And so I rated my retirement fund and Okay.
[00:08:11] And I’d done pretty well. I’m glad I did because right after I started, the market, tanked a little bit. So I actually, I, in my head, [00:08:20] I made money because, Cause I was Took it out. Yeah. I took it out and was able to spend it,
[00:08:24] Audra: Wow. That’s great. So where are you headed with all of this?
[00:08:28] Roger: Yeah. Long-term. my goal is that I would like to have a podcast. And to really focus on shows and people that are attempting to be entrepreneurs, but in an authentic way, in an or in an organic way. good. So I’ve found so much of this industry, if that’s what you were gonna call it, is synthetic.
[00:08:52] whether it’s social media or it’s publishing a book, or it’s, having a podcast that so much of success can be bought very easily, And very cheaply. And I wanna focus on, making sure that young podcasters, Heard the statistic the other day that you know, 50% of podcasters quit after 10 episodes and 75% quit after 21.
[00:09:15] So how
[00:09:16] Audra: do you, okay, I just made the cut then. I think I’m on 24.
[00:09:21] Roger: That’s awesome. Sure. Okay. I think you’re in the top 10% of all podcasts. Not based on downloads, but based on, yeah. it’s true. And you should celebrate all those little milestones. I celebrated 50 and I’m looking to do several things for my hundredth episode because if you get to a hundred episodes, that puts you in the top 1%.
[00:09:40] Most, 99% of podcast don’t make it to hundred episodes. That’s crazy. So I want to be able to create a network where we can get some folks that have been doing it for a while and really mentor others that are just getting started because I wanna be able to combat that pod fade with folks and help mentor ’em through that.
[00:09:59] and eventually [00:10:00] help them grow to the point where they can make money and if we can siphon off a little money, based on mine and others Yeah. Direction. Yeah. Yeah. But just being able to, get in on the monetization earlier. And won’t be a ton for new shows, but it’s something.
[00:10:16] know, if you’ve You’ve done this for very long. Monetization, takes a long time to really be able to get to the point where you’re making good money off of ads and being able to have the right ads and all those kind of things. That it takes a while. for you, it does, to get to the point where you have the numbers where it’s impressive.
[00:10:32] So if you co-op the several shows together, to raise those numbers, then everybody can benefit. And so I want to find some veterans that, Like me that are out there doing it and have been, and also find some shows that are just starting and bring those folks in and mentor them, but also, get ’em a little money.
[00:10:49] Pay for the hosting fees or something. So Sure. So they can, we can eliminate some of that pod fade.
[00:10:54] Audra: you brought up a really good point. I’ve been doing, I’ve owned an agency since 2009, so I’ve been around a really long time, and I would say in the last probably seven years or so, business has been created opportunity first.
[00:11:11] Oh, by the way, I hope I like. And have gone after the revenue or the sensationalism or the, look at me kind of attitude versus, I love this. Growing it from the bottom up versus the top down, I guess is probably a good way to say it. It’s nice to hear, or it’s refreshing to hear that somebody’s saying, it’s not just, I’m gonna follow my passion, I’m gonna do my thing.
[00:11:35] It’s, what I’m gonna do with what’s congruent with me. Because [00:11:40] when you’re excited about that and you’re doing what you’re meant to do, it’s not work. It doesn’t feel struggling or challenging. Inot, don’t get me wrong, challenges do come up even when you’re doing what you’re supposed to be doing.
[00:11:51] But, it’s much easier to stay the course. You don’t, the questions change. They’re no longer, do I wanna do this? Do I not wanna do this? It’s not going anywhere. It’s, this is what I’m meant to do. Now the challenge is do I wanna create that or do I wanna create that? And the whole thing, we get to pivot a little bit once you know you’re doing the right thing.
[00:12:12] Roger: yeah. And that comes from internal, right? it’s Sure. What first, what’s your intention? have you set an intention? when we talk about a business plan and. Having a mission statement and all those kind of things. And how often do you do that with a podcast, right? That people are like, some people, they just like to do it and it’s their hobby, and that’s great.
[00:12:34] I think you should do that all you want. But if you’re actually in the say, this is my business, right? I’m a professional podcaster, you’ve gotta be able to set intention of saying, what is it that I want to accomplish? In making money, but in the story that I want to tell, that’s the business we’re in.
[00:12:49] We’re in the business of telling stories, and so make it a good one.
[00:12:54] Audra: A truthful one though. unless you’re in, unless you’re market. no.
[00:12:58] Roger: I, I. I’ve made a lot of mistakes, in my year and a half doing this, and got duped a couple times. And one of the things that I tell new podcasters, yes, you need to, get on other people’s shows and, share their audiences, with you, but don’t ever pay for it.
[00:13:16] I did that one time and it got me nothing because the person was [00:13:20] releasing like four episodes a day. So I just got lost in all the other, youthat was his business model. He’s just making money off of selling space on his podcast. But when you’ve got that much content, yeah, your numbers are high, but it doesn’t mean anybody, doesn’t mean like why grip of pupils listening.
[00:13:37] He just had a lot of listeners because he was, doing content. Find out the content. Content, right? And I often approach. and pitched to other podcasters, to have me on their show. And I, got through the interview process or the submission process with one, show, and I think it was called, I don’t know exactly what was called, but it was confidence.
[00:13:55] Self-confidence was in the title of the show. And he came back to me and said, hey, we charged, $200, $250, whatever it was to be a guest on the show. If you’re interested, let me know. and I wrote him back and I said, no, I’m not interested. I don’t care how, what size your audience is or anything.
[00:14:13] I have enough self-confidence as luck in the name of your show to know my self-worth, that I’m gonna be giving you good. And so I’m not gonna pay, if you still wanna have me, I’d love to be on your show, but I’m not gonna pay to help you make content. That’s just not a thing for me. Wow.
[00:14:30] Audra: Nothing, I’ve not read across that yet.
[00:14:32] But, even with clients, all the clients I’ve had over the years, we never charged. Going out. that was part of our brand initiative. That was part of our building expertise and credibility and just adding value a way for, whatever guru I was working for us to add value.
[00:14:49] Never once to have we charged anybody, and I’ve worked with hundreds of clients over the years. Yeah. Different model, different age,
[00:14:57] Roger: but it’s not a sustainable model, that, that’s the thing [00:15:00] for me is that what are you doing that’s sustainable and organic, right? And eventually people are gonna realize, no, I don’t, I’m not gonna pay for that.
[00:15:08] And then where’s your business model? yeah, being organic. Is totally important for me. It’s a value I, hold very strongly. Good. And so I wanna make sure I do that. Now, in the business world, sometimes organic and inorganic get a little confusing because people might say that buying advertising is inorganic.
[00:15:26] I don’t think that is true. What we’re talking about now is being organic versus being, synthesized. That for content? Yeah. Yeah. for interaction with your people. I can get 10,000 downloads on my podcast tomorrow if I wanted to. If I wanted to pay $25. Yeah. I could do that.
[00:15:42] doesn’t really make a whole lot of sense because you know for who,even for, if I was looking for, advertisers, I’d still be paying to keep. Those 10,000 listeners coming in, or those 10,000 downloads coming in, I’d have to keep paying. there’s a diminishing return in that it’s not sustainable.
[00:16:00] And the, I wanna spend that time and that money cultivating my soil and my ground and my audience, in such a way that the show grows. And so I liken a lot what I do to being an organic farmer. Yeah. And sometimes people are like, oh, organic egg farmers just take a handful of seeds and chuck ’em out the window and hope something happens.
[00:16:16] And that is not at all, no, that’s not what an organic farmer does. They have to, maintain the soil in a healthy, natural way. They’ve gotta make sure they’re doing pest control again, in a organic, natural way. They have to prune their right crop just like everybody else.
[00:16:35] They’ve gotta do timing. it’s a lot of work to be an organic farmer, and [00:16:40] sometimes people complain about the prices, but it’s a lot harder than just throwing, some GMO Steph. Yeah, just throwing a G M O on there and walking away. and it growing bigger. The problem is that when you use GMOs in a farm, it’s not sustainable cuz damages the soil, it damages.
[00:16:55] the other crops, it does a lot of things that, sure, it may make, the fruit or vegetable a little bit bigger, that you can sell. But it’s, it’s not sustainable long term for the ground, for the environment to be able to.
[00:17:06] Audra: So let’s touch back on your podcast idea of where you’re going.
[00:17:11] So you’ve been working at this about a year and a half now. Give or take, yeah, a little bit of time. Yeah. Are there ever times where, give me an idea of what your day looks like. Do you wake up saying, oh my gosh, I’m excited, or, This sucks. I still have to do two more podcasts this week, or what does that look like for
[00:17:28] Roger: you?
[00:17:29] Yeah, I’ve really tried to schedule my time out pretty well. Okay. So I tend to run in spurts. yeah, I’ve had 96 guests on the show now. And I have content, backed up probably through the next two or three months. Great. So what I’ll do is I’ll, I’ll seek out guests for a couple weeks and then get them on the calendar and then record them.
[00:17:50] So Enough for about a full quarter of the year. Okay. For about two months, I’ll, hit that really hard. Head down. Yeah. Yeah. Getting good guess. Doing the recordings. And then the other month I’ll in the quarter I’ll slow down and focus on other stuff like getting on other people’s podcasts.
[00:18:06] Making sure my socials are all, up to date, those kind of things. but I do spend a l I spend about an hour and a half a day, doing social media stuff, posting and making sure that my content’s out there. And then I [00:18:20] spend probably about another two, three hours recording, episodes for the show.
[00:18:25] And then, once, twice a. Three times a week I’ll do an interview for somebody else. Okay. But then I, it’s, I do all my editing. I do, so I dropped two episodes a week. So it takes me about two hours to take the raw, audio and break it down into a 30 minute episode or 25, 30 minute episode, doing everything with it.
[00:18:45] And that’s also posting it to my host. Which includes, making sure the show notes, right And getting the cover on and, I do everything DIY and it’s just a matter of getting in place. last year this time I was taking a three month trip around Europe and Costa Rica and Israel, and I actually got all my recordings done, posted and everything before I left so that I didn’t have to worry about it.
[00:19:09] I did do some, I. With other shows while I was out, traveling, but for the most part I had done everything. I think that’s one of the beautiful things about using digital media is that pretty much you can schedule anything in advance that you want to. Yeah. It’s a matter of, like you said, putting your head down and digging in and getting it done, and then, three months, I didn’t have to really worry about it a whole lot.
[00:19:31] So that’s, You can schedule posts, you can schedule, drops for your podcast, all that kind of stuff. so that’s with the show. This show the second show that I’m doing, we have a very unique drop schedule that’s very different. The show’s called The Binge Wife. And it’s about, okay, it’s about what my partner and I binge watch basically on tv.
[00:19:53] We do one season of a show, each of one episode of ours. And what we’ve decided to do is, [00:20:00] Four or five episodes the first Thursday of each. okay. We record during the month and then we drop all those episodes at one time, at the
[00:20:07] Audra: beginning. Okay. So people can binge those. Yes, I got it.
[00:20:10] Roger: Yes, exactly. I’m trying to into that a little bit.
[00:20:12] And so that seems to work really well. It works for her, for my partner. My life partner is my co-host, and so this, she’s got a normal, regular job, so I’ve done everything I can to of make the process really seamless for her. We have good shared Google folder with our show sheets on it for each of the seasons that we’re doing and shows we’re doing, and so she can fill that out whenever she wants to and when she gets out that filled.
[00:20:35] with her side of things for the show, then we record and she knows that we need so many episodes by such time. And so that kind of gets lumped into everything that I’m doing. the third show that I’m gonna be doing is,I’m already starting to record those episodes. My goal is to have three months of episodes already, edited in the can and scheduled before I actually even launched the show.
[00:20:58] What is that one about? That’s called Bringing in bro, and it’s basically about modern masculinity. it’s a very, okay, nice dude. Oriented show. It’s a very guy oriented show. Okay. A very different feel from the other ones. But it’s gonna be about, my experiences with other guys. I’m extremely lucky that I have a l a lot of male friends.
[00:21:21] Good. But some guys don’t have that. Some guys don’t. Yeah. Yeah, I do. And so almost all my interviews are gonna be. People I know people have been in my life for a long time. So the first episode that’s gonna drop is with my best friend, and we’ve been friends for almost 39 years. he comes from a military background [00:21:40] and, what his father was in the military.
[00:21:41] He was in the military. And so we talked a lot in that episode about, when did our father, when do we remember? Our father’s really telling us we, they loved us and what that meant to us, and growing up with that or not. And then we switched the conversation to him and I about when did we as two guys right?
[00:22:01] We weren’t related. Start telling each other. We loved each other at
[00:22:04] Audra: our dating.
[00:22:04] Roger: yeah. that’s fairly platonic. When did we start saying, we love you. I love you to each other, and. How that changed the dynamic of the relationship. So that’s basically what’s gonna be, there’s no pre, thought out.
[00:22:18] just let it go. Yeah. This is where we’re going. I know where I’m going with each of the people that I’m interviewing because it’s specific. I have one friend that I interviewed about grief. I have, one friend I interviewed about having guy. And so I know what I want to get out of it, but What happens, and then that’s after that again, it’s fun and it’s joyful and it’s conversation I’m already engaged with and right. It’s with people that I care about, and so it makes it super easy.
[00:22:43] Audra: and if it can add value to the people that are listening that are maybe in that same spot or are stuck.
[00:22:49] one of my earlier podcasts I did with a husband and wife that are friendship coaches. So what they do is they teach, especially entrepreneurs, If you’re not coming from a job or a corporate where you’ve had years and time and grade to be able to build friendships, being an entrepreneur, you’ll find you have very few friends, really tight friends because you’re so busy in your business and your employees are typically not the people you hang out with.
[00:23:15] Anybody you have. So they have a program where they. [00:23:20] Business owners how to create friendships and then foster those friendships. it was such an interesting perspective because I’ve been self-employed for a long time. this is my fourth business now. I’ve had jobs, I’ve done, VP of marketing for big companies, and I can go either way, depending on where my skills can be used best.
[00:23:41] But I do find that when I am the leader, that the circle gets much smaller. You just, it come, becomes a bandwidth issue, becomes a focus. you almost have to look at it from, what am I gonna give up to have these friendships or not give up, but trade, because we still only have the same amount of time.
[00:24:01] So I’ve gotta say, okay, where are my priorities? And then where does social fit into that? Now I don’t watch a lot of t, well, I don’t watch any tv, but occasionally I’ll watch,some binge watch some shows if they’re out on Netflix or something like that. But again, not that often when I’m not working, I am like exploring and learning new things and, I wanna learn about, like, now I’m down the rabbit hole of AI and all the wonderful, crazy things it can do.
[00:24:28] But, that’s what I wanna do with my free time. I wanna learn something else. Or go hang out with people that wanna talk about it or, I’m, wherever that seems to evolve into is a place of joy. Like you said, that if it’s painful, going to a networking event, not too much for me, that’s just not, and yes, it’s good for business and yes, that’s where you meet people, but it’s so incongruent with who I am.
[00:24:53] I’m past the age of forcing myself to do stuff like
[00:24:56] Roger: that. Yeah. I’m definitely a member of the UN-Conference [00:25:00] Group. Yeah.
[00:25:01] Audra: When I go to conference, believe me, I’ve done my share. Yeah.
[00:25:04] Roger: Yeah. When I go to conferences,People say, oh, how was the key speaker? I’m like, I don’t know. I was chatting with somebody in the lobby.
[00:25:11] Yeah. Who, is just as interesting and has just as much knowledge and all that kind of stuff. And I built a relationship that’s much more valuable to me than going and sitting and making sure I’ve gone to every session and gone to every breakout and gone to every keynote. It’s I’m gonna find people and Yeah, engage with people because that means a lot more.
[00:25:33] Audra: I think depth matters to me to have a surface conversation. Oh, what do you do? What do you do? Oh, you have a pet? I have a dog. What do you. it’s a waste of time. I have no interest in small talk. It’s let’s do something meaningful, or let’s not waste each other’s time, because after this five minute or 10 minute interaction, we’re never gonna see each other again, and there was really nothing there for us to have a second conversation.
[00:25:56] I don’t wanna waste your time. Don’t waste my time. Let’s move on. Yeah.
[00:26:00] Roger: And it should be natural, right? It should. It should be. So I just
[00:26:03] Audra: don’t do it.
[00:26:04] Roger: I think part of it is developing the skill to recognize Yeah. recognize, I’ve heard a phrase one time, find yourself when other people and meet them there.
[00:26:13] so that’s, I had a great example of my father who passed away last year. He was a salesman and he killed it. He was just, absolutely, he he had all New England and part of New Jersey at one point. And part of Pennsylvania. And when he left that position to take on another territory with the company, they’d hire four people
[00:26:33] to do his job because he was just so good. And part of the reason that my dad was so good was because he [00:26:40] really met people where they were and he found himself in them and fostered that. And if you can’t, if you can’t find yourself in other people, get out. it’s, you’re not, do something else, have a good time.
[00:26:51] you’re just not gonna have a good time with that person. And and that’s okay. We don’t have to like everybody, we don’t have to. Work with everybody. We don’t have to network with everybody. if it just doesn’t feel right, there’s probably good reason for that. And it’s not a statement of judgment on the other person.
[00:27:05] It’s just, I don’t find anyone. We’re, yeah, we’re different. And that’s okay.
[00:27:09] Audra: That’s okay. So you’ve got the three podcasts, you’ve got a few books out. where do you feel overwhelmed? Do you, how many hours a week do you think you spend running your business? Stuff.
[00:27:23] Roger: Yeah. I don’t feel overwhelmed unless I make myself overwhelmed.
[00:27:26] Okay, good. part of it again, is, the joy of it. I, when I first started the Crossing Off Podcast, I would obsess about numbers. You did. that’s easy for me to do. Yeah. And so I just midway through my first year and a half or so, I had to learn to obsess about, I still obsess right?
[00:27:47] Every night. So look, but I’m not as concerned about the numbers. Everybody else is okay, so, so when I go on my host and I look at the analytics, the first place I go is the. I wanna see if somebody, oh, I wanna see if somebody from another country that hasn’t already downloaded the show, has downloaded the show.
[00:28:06] like my big number is 73. I’ve had the show downloaded in 73 other countries. So I, okay. I’m a social studies teacher at Heart and Love geography and love maps. And okay. I obsess over that map and that number instead of [00:28:20] going, oh my gosh, I only have how
[00:28:21] Audra: many downloads? How many, right?
[00:28:23] Roger: Okay. How many downloads? I found something. To keep my mind occupied than to looking at those things. Because then just you have to understand when you get in this game is that it’s, yeah, it’s a long haul. It’s is a long tail model of business, right? You get big hits when you first drop something, but then you continuously get hits.
[00:28:43] At least I do over a period, maybe bumps. Yeah. yeah. but if you look at the long tail as far as here’s a new episode, this episode’s older. Oh, this episode’s older. Like going back to my very first episode a hundred episodes ago, I’m still getting monthly downloads off of that. great.
[00:28:57] so my content is very evergreen and folks can find all different kinds of items that the stories are based on, that people have crossed off their bucket list. So not every episode might hit, I think there’s good inspiration in each one of them, but, you have to understand that people are still gonna listen to those old episodes, and that’s fine.
[00:29:18] Sure. And there’s downloads. Just because I have, hundred downloads today doesn’t mean that all those came from the newest episode. Some of those came from older episodes. Oh,
[00:29:25] Audra: I see what you’re saying. Okay.
[00:29:26] Roger: so it, there’s a book called The Long Tail and it talks about Christopher Anderson.
[00:29:31] yeah. when you,when. The weekend drops a new song, there’s massive, amount of traction and engagement, but over time he still has, 20, 30 other songs that are still being downloaded, just not at that level and So you have to understand the overall longer period of time and you continuously do it.
[00:29:50] that’s where the growth is. The growth is having all that content. And for me, I’ve made some aggressive choices, like to do two episodes a week and provide more [00:30:00] content for that show. I’ve made an aggressive choice to say, with the call the binge wife, we’re only gonna drop.
[00:30:04] a, that’s a big deal. and the new show will be weekly probably, but I have once a week. Yeah, but I have content backed up for that. And the biggest thing for me is, when I talk to the new podcasters, is that it’s, just be consistent. Whatever it is, whatever works for you, just be consistent with it so that you can keep being consistent.
[00:30:22] if you take an aggressive stance and you, As far as when you’re, how many episodes you’re gonna do and the content you’re gonna provide and you can’t provide it, that’s a bigger mistake than saying, I met some woman today, right? that has, she drops one episode a month and her episodes are an hour long, and they’re stellar, they’re great.
[00:30:39] And if that’s what it takes for her to drop one episode, then it’d be that good. Awesome. That’s consistency. One episode a month, that’s consistency. So just keep doing it. Doing it at that level. Maybe, eventually you’ll be able to rightsize that and say, okay, I’m gonna rightsize this and then it’s time for me to go to twice a month.
[00:30:56] Or it’s time for me to go weekly, or whatever it is. But right now she can do once a month. I do once a month. and so for me, I, I do have long-term goals. I do wanna start that podcast network. And so I want to grow my own show, grow my own audiences so that I can be a healthy part of that.
[00:31:14] And I’m. I’m being aggressive with my content. Same time. I’m not gonna kill myself over it. Of doing it. I’m not gonna un, excuse me, I’m not gonna unlive myself. what the kids say today. over unlive. That’s what they say. Unlive. Yeah, because they interesting. Cause you don’t wanna say kill or death or anything on Oh.
[00:31:30] Social media platforms. So now everyone’s saying un unlive. I have
[00:31:35] Audra: never heard that before.
[00:31:36] Roger: Yeah, I’ve seen it all the time. I’m on Instagram too much. But, interesting. But yeah,[00:31:40] I don’t wanna damage myself with what I’m doing, but the, going back to it again, multiple times, the great thing is that it’s natural for me.
[00:31:47] I had never listened to a podcast before. I did my first interview with somebody from my own podcast. No, huh? Yeah. And so I had a friend that, interesting. I had a friend that was really in the podcast, and, I said, Hey, here’s my idea. What do you think? And he goes, oh, that’ll work. I said, why did you gimme that response?
[00:32:04] And he said, because I have sat with you in places where you have met strangers and gotten them to tell you their story. So I to watch that happen and multiple times, and that’s what you do, that’s awesome. So it makes it very easy for me to do that for the podcast, especially something around bucket list, which I’m passionate.
[00:32:25] And the same can be said for, call the binge wife. That was the pitch I gave my partner when I said, Hey, you wanna do this? I said, we already do this. we binge watch tv. We’re just gonna record it, right? Yeah. We binge watch tv and then we spend time afterwards talking about it and analyzing it.
[00:32:41] That’s awesome. How we felt about it. I’m like, so what’s the difference if we just turn on some microphones? and she was like, Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. And she’s like anything, it’s doing the reps too, right? Yeah. The more you do something, if you wanna get better, the easier it gets.
[00:32:54] Yeah. The easier it gets, the better you get at it. I’m not great. I’m not super impressive, as far as my skills go, but I’m getting better every time and that’s all there is, That you can ask for is just getting better and getting better. And I think, Said to me once, aren’t you afraid someone will go back and listen to that first episode?
[00:33:09] And they’re like, they do all the time. Do. Yeah. but at the same time, it’s if they’ve listened, evolution yeah, they’ve listened to a newer episode, then they know how bad it was. And they go back and listen to the old episode, they’re like, oh, this [00:33:20] has gotten a lot better. Good. I’m glad.
[00:33:21] Audra: here’s the other thing. We start in kindergarten, So if you’re gonna go in and judge a kindergartner that they don’t know algebra, then shame on you right then. That’s not good to begin with. you need the earlier stuff there because it shows your commitment. So first for me, it’s commitment.
[00:33:38] Put out the crappy stuff. Put out the stuff that’s not perfect, that’s wonky, that you’re uncomfortable with, that makes you,push. Put all that out there because that’s really who you are. at least be congruent with that. People will see the evolution of you evolving. I’ve built hundreds of websites over the years, probably I’ve passed 500 at this point, and I always tell people, Go back and look in the way back time machine, the archive.org.
[00:34:07] And look at where some of these companies have come from. They didn’t start with this massive news, beautiful layouts and colors and all, on brand. They didn’t start there. They were clunky and wonky, and the colors didn’t match and the boxes were different sizes. It’s an evolution and we have to have enough grace for ourself to be able to make this step over.
[00:34:32] And allow ourselves to improve. Do you follow, Alex Hormozi at all? No. Now he’s a business guy. He owns a company called acquisitions.com. His background is sales. Tremendously successful guy. his YouTube channel is sick, but, and his stuff is solid. from a business perspective, spot on.
[00:34:52] But he started a podcast, maybe I wanna say 4, 5, 6 years ago. He [00:35:00] recorded something like 400 episodes, just trotted along little by little. It was a audio, it was just him by himself talking about sales. fast forward a few years, he’s done really well. His company, acquires other companies,
[00:35:15] So when he started his YouTube and really stepping out there, his kind of tagline was, I have nothing to sell. I’m just here to add value. And so people immediately dropped their guard and started getting into his content. And like I said, it’s solid content. But since then, now his podcast is like in the top 10 for business and it’s this and this.
[00:35:36] And he would come on and he talks about it. He’s you guys go back and look at the over 400 that I recorded and there were cricket. Sometimes they weren’t downloaded at all. Sometimes I had 10 people, sometimes I had 50. The thing and why he won is because he was consistent. He did one a week and he showed up no matter what the feedback loop was looking like.
[00:36:02] He made a commitment that’s what he was gonna do. And yes, it’s paid off, but at some point that momentum kicks in. And if you stay true and you improve your skill along with everything that you’re producing, you get to benefit from those kind of results. And not that everybody’s gonna win, but the content has to be accurate and valuable for the listener.
[00:36:23] But that’s a perfect example of just stay in the course. Yeah. And stay in the course. And I
[00:36:29] Roger: think that it’s staying the course is a super important, consistency is massively important. Yeah. I think one of the benefits that I’ve given myself and used the term grace, and I think [00:36:40] that’s super, super valuable is that, when I learn new stuff, I just learn from it and I move on.
[00:36:46] I don’t like the bumper, like the intro to the, to my show, the crossing off. It’s changed I don’t know, seven or eight times over the course of Yeah. cuz I get better and I hear, oh, I should use that and I should use that language and, I don’t go back and re-edit everything that I’ve ever done.
[00:37:03] No. Somebody wanted to look through those, And I’m constantly going, okay, this will improve the show. I’m gonna do that. And I don’t beat myself up that I didn’t know that, or that I didn’t do that, or that I have to go back and redo everything. Now that I know that, I just take what I learned, apply it and keep moving.
[00:37:21] And keep moving. And I think that’s super important to allow yourself to be, like, to learn and to adjust. And not beat yourself up about that. That you’re going to,hear new thoughts and new things and just incorporating that as it’s okay. It’s okay not to know everything.
[00:37:35] and to once, once you do, and if you, Do those things and don’t then shame on you.
[00:37:40] Audra: Once you know there’s no excuse. Exactly. I tell my kids that all the time. Yeah. Once you know you’re not supposed to eat that and you keep eating it, you’re making a conscious decision to go against what you know is best for you.
[00:37:50] Yeah, exactly. And that’s okay, but you gotta accept the responsibility that goes on the other side of
[00:37:54] Roger: that. Yeah. Yeah. I’ve never known everything about this. Like I said, I hadn’t, none of us do listened. I hadn’t listened to a single podcast before I did my first interview. I have some experience.
[00:38:04] It’s probably
[00:38:04] Audra: better though, that you didn’t, because you know what it’s, I often say as I develop new products and add new things, I wish I did not know as much as I know. Because it actually causes obstacles for me cuz I’m like, [00:38:20] no, I’m not gonna do it halfway cuz I know how it has to be built. if I’m gonna build it, I’m gonna have to build all 100 steps or I’m just not gonna do it.
[00:38:28] Somebody without the background will just hop in and say, oh, there’s only 12 steps, and just put those up and hope it works. But I know better so it trips me. Yeah, I
[00:38:38] Roger: can see that happening. And so it’s a matter of that’s where the grace comes in, right? That’s where the grace comes in, where the grace comes in and say, I don’t know everything.
[00:38:46] I don’t, again, being as organic as possible and authentic as possible. Yeah. I don’t know everything and I’m gonna figure it out and I’m not gonna let myself. by not knowing stuff. Beat myself up. I’m just, I, my second episode I accidentally uploaded, the raw footage.
[00:39:02] the, just the, oh no, just the edited five months. He was got there for five months. I don’t even remember why I found out that it, it wasn’t the right thing. Oh no. It’s like,like, oh my gosh, it’s so horrible. But you know what the reality is that, in my first five months, that episode probably downloaded 50 or 60 times.
[00:39:21] Which, yes, maybe those people would’ve, stayed that had not been. Horrible. even my guest was like, oh, I guess this is the show. I was like, oh my gosh, no. Oh no. I was angry with myself for a couple seconds. I’m like, okay, that’s never gonna happen again.
[00:39:36] So I, so I, once I uploaded into my. My host, I listen. It gives me a chance to listen. I’m like, listen. I’m like, okay, bumpers there. Cold open’s there. Okay, we’re good.
[00:39:46] Audra: cuz it’s a lot. But I didn’t cut out any major parts. That’s right. yeah. There is a big, transition between people that have jobs.
[00:39:54] And are expertise in something, right? So say they worked in the company, they worked there a lot of [00:40:00] years, their top maybe under the executive team or whatever, decide to take that expertise and spin off on their own. I could do it better, faster, cheaper, whatever it is, right? They want to explore this thing, and they are some of the hardest people on themselves that I have ever met, and I’m like, wait a second, you knew this.
[00:40:23] Where do you think you’re gonna learn all these skills about being an entrepreneur? I don’t care how much you actually did in that company. Those skills don’t transfer one for one. There’s a whole nother set of skills that you have to learn, and so many people are so hard on themselves because they think they should know it.
[00:40:40] And I’m like, so how? When did you learn QuickBooks? You’re a sales rep, right? Or when did you learn processes? Or What made you think that you could balance? Now you have 82 things you have to do today. Before you just had, this is your lane and you stayed in your lane. Now it’s not, so it’s okay to not know all the answers and be able to ask for help.
[00:41:02] Somebody else has already done it. Yeah. So you don’t have to recreate the wheel. But I do find they are some of the hardest people to. Coach themselves or to be able to evolve through that because everything has to be perfect and I have to have all the answers before I go out and talk to anybody.
[00:41:21] And it’s gotta suck to be there. Yeah.
[00:41:25] Roger: Yeah. I think it goes back to being, again, authentic and being able to recognize that you don’t know everything. It’s not possible. And, being able to, Listen to other people and take those things that they say and [00:41:40] check to see if it’s g m o.
[00:41:41] Check to see if it’s, check to see if it’s,Organic or not. Yeah. A breathing tonic or not. or it’s actual real, and then take it and use it for its value. And I don’t have to make, I don’t have to do everything everybody else says. and my best friend says, you’ll never join a club that wants you.
[00:41:58] And so sometimes that’s hard for me to sit there and go, okay, this person knows more. Or, but I always check the intent behind who they are and what they’re doing. And I think that’s super important. I actually,getting into the bucket list space, I was trying to find a certified bucket list coaching program so I could say I was certified.
[00:42:17] Because although I have all this experience and, yeah. It matters. Whatever it’s, and this person is
[00:42:23] Audra: there such a.
[00:42:25] Roger: So I found one. Okay. And after talking with the primary several times. Okay. I’m just like, no, I don’t wanna do this. I, yeah. you’re doing your thing and that’s great.
[00:42:37] I don’t wanna be Tony Robbins. I’d love to have Tony Robbins money, but I don’t wanna be Tony Robbins. And then, there’s a lot of things in business and especially in the thought industry that you have to do certain things or be a certain way or,why haven’t you known a TED Talk yet?
[00:42:49] Or, all these things that we say matter and. I believe that if I go out there and be myself and be authentic and honest, that’s it with people that I’m gonna attract, like-mindedness and that I’ll do just fine. it’s a little stubborn, but at the same time it’s, not that,
[00:43:06] Audra: I like Ted don’t think, I don’t even think stubborn is the right word for it.
[00:43:09] I think it’s being congruent with who you are. I did a talk, a AI talk a few weeks back and one of, girlfriend. Friend of mine watched it and she’s Audra, why didn’t you [00:43:20] wear, you wore, I wore a tank top Now it was a fine tank top. It wasn’t anything inappropriate or anything. She’s I just would’ve dressed up.
[00:43:28] And I’m like, for what there was, I wanna be who I am. I’m gonna show up how I want to. I am too old too. I don’t have anything to prove to anybody if I’m not for them. That’s okay. But do you think that they’re gonna say, oh, I like her better cuz she had on a collar shirt. if that’s the case, they’re not my people.
[00:43:46] Roger: Yeah, no, exactly. I It’s just not, yeah. So a quick story. When I walked the communal Santiago, there’s mile markers, climbing markers all along the way that tell you how close you’re getting to, San the Ella and the hundred. A kilometer marker is like what I call the Instagram marker. okay, everybody’s stopping getting their picture taken there because you have to walk a hundred kilometers to be, to get a certificate of completion when you get done.
[00:44:12] So that one’s the most like important marker that most people take their picture with, and my partner joined me. that day to actually start walking. I had been walking like 26 days and she had just started and we were coming up onto the a hundred kilometer marker and, I said, I wanna take a picture there.
[00:44:29] But I think that I would like to be naked when I do it, and Good for you. so yeah, it was, I’ve seen lots of people take pictures there. I’ve seen ’em on Instagram, but I’ve never seen anybody get naked and take a naked selfie at the a hundred kilometer mark. And we had gotten up late,there wasn’t anybody there.
[00:44:47] Like we saw two people pass by at the most. And When, I did it, I posted the Instagram and with a Did you? Yeah, and with, I had my hat over my stuff, but, I lost a hundred followers in about an hour. [00:45:00] I clocked it, I tracked it and people are like, oh my gosh, you lost a hundred. Follow.
[00:45:05] That’s horrible. And I’m like, no, because if that’s the reason why you don’t wanna follow me, then it’s good to get outta the way now because Absolutely. Because it’s probably, it’s not that it’s gonna be something else I do or say and so you just shouldn’t be here and that, and it’s okay. It’s absolutely okay, to be able to say, Hey, look, this isn’t your bag.
[00:45:25] Great. Move on. I’ll move on. find who is, yeah. Yeah. the problem that we have is that people want to complain before they move on, so make us think about it. Yeah, true. It’s not your thing. Oh my gosh. Just
[00:45:37] Audra: keep going. Just keep going. Zip it. All right. I’ve really appreciated this chat that we’ve had get.
[00:45:43] What would you say for somebody that’s at that place where you were? Not necessarily health wise, but just at a pivotal place where I like what I’m doing, but I don’t feel like I’m living my purpose. what would be the best advice for them to explore . Finding that out for themselves? I would say have
[00:46:02] Roger: more conversations with people that, that care about you and that are safe.
[00:46:07] Okay, so often we have conversations with people that aren’t safe, not because we don’t like them, or they’re not good people, they’re just tend to be negative or, judgey. Yeah, judgey is a good word for it. have conversations with other people and then my partner’s going through this right now where she’s I don’t know, I in between, I don’t know what I wanna do.
[00:46:25] And I said, just don’t do all of it. Do it at pieces at a time. As a parent, that was one of the things that I told my kids. I said, if you wanna try something, great, try it. And if you get into it, then we’ll keep going. If you don’t wanna [00:46:40] keep doing it, that’s fine, but you’re only gonna do one thing at a time, right?
[00:46:43] We’re not gonna play four different sports at one time and take dance lessons and do one thing, and so that’s what I would suggest to people. Okay? Make a list of those things that you’re passionate about or that you think you might be interested in, and pick one of them and do that over a period of time and see how it.
[00:46:59] And cuz I, I didn’t know that, that I was passionate about the subject matter of my podcast, but I But I wasn’t real passionate about podcasting. I didn’t know that was gonna happen. And it just, after doing it for two, three months Consistently, I was like, oh, I love this.
[00:47:12] I wanted, that’s awesome. And if I hadn’t, I probably would’ve stopped it and kept going. And
[00:47:16] Audra: That’s okay. All right you guys, that is a big lesson. Try stuff. We’re only here one time and you don’t wanna live with a bunch of regret, not exploring what you could be and how you can show up on this planet.
[00:47:30] So thank you so much for being here. I’ve enjoyed it. Oh,
[00:47:35] Roger: thanks. I appreciate you asking me. And I love to the.
[00:47:39] Audra: Good. Good. I look forward to see where all this stuff evolves for you. The network thing is a great idea. I think finding congruent platforms where people are living their authentic best self is definitely needed with take the sales stuff out of it.
[00:47:54] Let’s have like real stuff. Money will be made on the backside. let’s focus on the right stuff at the right time. There you go. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Until next time. Thank you. [00:48:20]
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