Bao Yang

Welcome to this insightful podcast where we dive deep into the challenges and triumphs of entrepreneurship with Bao Yang, In this engaging conversation, Bao shares her journey from working as an engineer in the automotive industry to becoming a life coach, and later transitioning into copywriting. 

bao yang

About the Guest

Bao Yang is an empath and HSP – a highly sensitive person and the host of the ambitious empath show. 

She helps other ambitious sensitivities to navigate life and their career through self-regulation and greater self-awareness. 

She is half-French and half-Hmong and she lives in Germany with her loving family.


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1 Million Cups


Audra Carpenter


Bao Yang


CJ Carpenter



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Episode Transcript

*What follows is an AI-generated transcript may not be 100% accurate. 


[00:00:00] Audra: Welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining me today, and I’m looking forward to our conversation of what’s to

[00:00:47] BAO: come. Thank you Audra for having me.

[00:00:49] I’m very excited to, to have this conversation.

[00:00:52] Audra: Good. So why don’t we take a few minutes and tell the audience a little bit about yourself. And then we’ll dig into where you’re at and your business and how things are going.

[00:01:02] BAO: Okay. So my name is Bao, I am French. I was born and rising in France from, Asian parents.

[00:01:08] They come from Laos. And, after I would say so, I studied engineering, electronics engineering. And then after working for over a decade in the automotive industry, I decided to take a leap of faith and try my own, to do my own business, to set up my own business. Yes. And basically it was triggered because I was pregnant and I was highly.

[00:01:36] Frustrated by my job. And I remember [00:01:40] that during my pregnancy, I would complain to my husband about my job for an hour per day, like a literal hour per day. And I thought, that’s not the mom that I wanna be. . So I feel that it’s very unfortunate that I try to set up my business while becoming a mom because it feels like it’s a little bit complicated

[00:01:58] but I think that if I wasn’t, if I hadn’t been pregnant, I think I would have never, it would have never pushed me to actually take that step because I always felt that it was not for me, that I didn’t have the shoulders for, that I was not mature enough. and actually for me it was, the ref, like I thought at the time,if I move companies, if I just change jobs whether it’s internally or externally, I would still have the same set of problems And it’s really not what I want for me. So I decided that, being my own boss with all the things that comes with it, is really something that I’m ready to take on as a challenge.

[00:02:36] Audra: I hear that often and I would say the bigger, majority of people pivot into something completely different.

[00:02:42] So you are doing engineering. What are you doing now?

[00:02:45] BAO: so I started as a coach, a life coach. So I wanted to work with emotions and people who are highly sensitive and empath and I’m transitioning to do something else again. So are . Okay. I’m transitioning to copywriting. but I think we are gonna get into the details of why and how and all

[00:03:05] Audra: this.

[00:03:05] But yeah, . Okay. Awesome. Okay. it’s exciting to talk to different people coming in through different. journeys through life of what has drive him there. A lot of times it is either I’m burnout or I’ve [00:03:20] tapped out in the job that I have as far as experience, or I’m right below the owner and there’s really nowhere else I can go

[00:03:26] and they’ll find that place where it’s just this rinse and repeat thing and, it’s very different. I was listening to a few podcasts this weekend and, the days of getting a job and working at a company for 40 years and then retiring and having this nice, settled life, at 55 or 60, we are just not there anymore.

[00:03:46] And I don’t think it’s there either side. The employers aren’t keeping people around. because the businesses are transitioning so much, but the employees don’t wanna do that either. Yeah. That’s,it’s cool to see that we’re living through a time where we can do multiple things.

[00:04:02] In completely different industries, it still excel and do very well. I’ve had jobs and I’ve had my own businesses as far as my own businesses. I had coffee shops and then coffee shops transitioned to real estate and . So I owned a title company and then a title company, shifted to a marketing agency.

[00:04:23] Completely different industries, but the premise is still the same at the bottom. I’m still serving, I’m still taking in expertise or some kind of product or service and providing a service for clients so that foundation stuff hasn’t changed. It’s just the widget that it’s being delivered with is the only thing that’s been different,

[00:04:43] , let’s take a little bit of time and talk about this transition that you’re making. So you went from engineering to life coaching. . And why are you feeling like you need to pivot again?

[00:04:56] BAO: So actually I, so I didn’t go directly from [00:05:00] engineering to life coaching. I did a little, break from Engineering.

[00:05:04] I went to marketing, pro marketing, but it was still a tech company. It was still a big, a very big corporation in, yeah, this industry, like the automotive industry. And, so what was missing for me was, The purpose was the meaning of my job. And I knew that working in those big corporation, it’s like you have a lot of opportunities.

[00:05:27] There are tons of different jobs so you can evolve and et cetera. But I knew that by the end of the day, my ultimate goal, the ultimate goal of this company is to make money and to bring money to the stakeholders. And I felt that it was not something that is strong enough for me to keep doing that because I felt that something was missing.

[00:05:47] And I understand how people like the challenge of being in a, in business, in corporate. but that wasn’t for me. And this is why I decided to go to,to do this,to go on the path of entrepreneurship. And I thought in, I really want to have, I really wanna see an impact in people’s lives because when I was working there, it is like you have so much pressure, but at the same time, The impact of your work is so minimum.

[00:06:16] It’s if you don’t see it, you don’t, you almost never see the clients and you almost never see the product and product Or what it does. and so I really wanted to work with clients directly and to have an impact on their lives. This is why I decided to go for coaching. I think I’m also very, I’m very interested in people in psychology, in emotions and all this kind of stuff, self-development.

[00:06:37] And so this seemed like a natural [00:06:40] thing for me. Sure. So I did my training, my coaching training. I loved it. I’m still in touch with the people. I did the training with. Okay. We had such a beautiful connection and then and then I started to look for clients. This is where the trouble came.

[00:06:55] And ah,

[00:06:56] and it’s difficult because,

[00:06:59] When, so I started in 2021, and It was after Covid, so , past Covid. And I believe that something happened, something shifted during the Covid time when everyone started to be online, right? And so we had all those resources in terms of courses and all those ways to do business, to attract clients, to do nurturing and all this.

[00:07:24] And if, first, like I, I think the first six months, it was a big overwhelm for me to, yeah, be thinking about what type of strategy do I need? What type of marketing do I need? And everyone was telling me, you have to niche down. You have to know Who you’re serving and define your offers. So I think I spent the first half year only doing that, only thinking about how I could serve people and in to which it tell, and which people like which part of the population.

[00:07:55] And then the next, the six months, later I was trying to set up a funnel, a sales funnel, like a proper one with Facebook ads and webinars and the whole thing. Like I spent tons of money on, email marketing and everything, like all the tools possible to finally find out after those 12 months of trying to set up my business, my offer, and all this, and the funnel [00:08:20] to realize that actually maybe that’s not what I wanna do.

[00:08:23] ,

[00:08:23] Audra: it is very different once you get into it. A piece of reality that everybody needs to be aware of. We have this idea of how we want to serve, but all the things that go underneath it, if you don’t have a team or the skills to do it the resources there is such a, on ramp to be able to get that to actually work.

[00:08:45] I’m in the middle of writing a book called Marketing Reset, and the reason I bring it up is people just don’t realize, they see, Facebook ads or they see social media saying you have an expertise, turn it into revenue, turn it into a business. . And people think that you can go from just, I’m an expert in.

[00:09:05] And therefore I just need to start marketing and find clients and put up a funnel and I’m all done. you’re living testament of how challenging that can be if you don’t understand that process. having a funnel up is just having a funnel up. It has nothing to do with all the other moving pieces that need to connect to make that happen.

[00:09:25] And then even when you have a funnel up, there’s, that’s like the stuff under the water. So you have to build all that iceberg. But then once that’s done, then the actual work starts. How do I get clients? How do I get ’em to click on my ad? How do I close them? How do I have those conversations that I’m not like the other a hundred coaches that they’re interviewing?

[00:09:47] I get it with your industry, especially for coaching. It’s very competitive. And they’re after c o v when everybody moved online between marketers and coaches. I think we like a [00:10:00] thousand fold those industries and everybody and their brother is now a Facebook ads provider, a coach, or some kind of marketer.

[00:10:08] It’s challenging. So if you’re new, it’s tough.

[00:10:12] BAO: I feel that, and it is the reason why I wanted to participate in your podcast because I really like that. First of all, the title and the graphic is just amazing. they’re just amazing. The mess in the middle, And this is something that I told you when we were having a call before this interview.

[00:10:27] Yeah. When I told you I’m still in the middle. Like I’m still in the mess , so I’m not outta it. So I don’t know what you expect. And then you were really reassuring that it was like, this is not a story you’re looking for. You’re not looking for how did I make, a six figure launch or whatever. And the one thing that I regret is that, You see all those things and it looks so amazing and it looks so shiny and it looks like so promising.

[00:10:54] it just really sounds like you are gonna set up a funnel and then suddenly, your launch gonna make six figures, like it sounds so, and they, and did you put it like in such a way that Yeah. you believe in that? And I’m sure that the program also is made in such a way that, the, most of them believe in the success of their programs and it’s great, but the conversation that we are not having and and that we are having right now actually is how much does it take, actually, and they don’t tell you.

[00:11:20] So they’re gonna present like big numbers, but they don’t tell you, okay. Those people, like how long have they been in business? How much do they know their clients , how, refined is their offer. and just this kind of this is all those. Information that I was missing when I decided to participate to [00:11:40] all those programs and take loans and, and pay thousands for them.

[00:11:44] And I feel that they were a little bit playing on the fact that, you knew you want to appear professional and you want to do things right and from the start. And there is a, like a lot of imposter syndrome if you come to that sphere after covid. And so I cannot stay, I cannot stay for before Covid because I was not there.

[00:12:04] I don’t know how it was, but Sure. I feel that. They’re really playing on using insecurities. , they don’t tell you the whole thing. yes, email marketing for example, is super great. It makes sense because you never know what’s happened with what’s gonna happen with Facebook and Instagram, et cetera, but they don’t tell you how much time does,

[00:12:23] Audra: does it take, youHow much does

[00:12:24] BAO: it take for me to, like, how many emails do I need to write before people are warmed up and open to have a discussion with me, to jump out the coffin with me to buy my offer? and this is this kind of conversation that people don’t tell you. So once you start applying, like you buy those program, you start applying them, you super motivated and suddenly you see zero results after 2, 3, 4 months, you start to question like, is it me?

[00:12:50] am I bad? Is my offer bad? Other people, do they not want it? Do I come in a bad time on the market? Am I too, I don’t know, avantgarde or whatever, . And you start to have all those questions again, and then again you look for another program to save you and to save your business.

[00:13:07] And I feel that it’s a little bit regretful scary. We don’t have those conversations about how actually, like whatever method you choose to have, it’s always gonna take time. I think it’s always gonna take time [00:13:20] to, to set up a business, to feel comfortable in your offer with your clients, to really, yeah, get to know yourself through this process and get to have, like to develop your pro your business.

[00:13:31] I don’t know, what is your point of view? Because you have been like, more than 10 years in, in business already. So what is your take on that? Like how do you see

[00:13:38] Audra: that? first everything that you said is spot on. and just so you know, every single business, not excluding any of them, are going through at some point the same thing you just went through.

[00:13:52] They hop in and now somebody gave me a different perspective of this whole funnel and make a million dollars and all that kind of stuff. And I’m not picking on one company, I’m just picking on, the whole idea of it’s that simple. It’s really not that simple. But somebody gave me a different perspective.

[00:14:09] What she said was for her that made her feel like it was possible. So she was okay being a little overly optimistic. Because she needed that to think that she could do it. Now, once she got into it, once she got into it, it was super challenging, but she didn’t feel misled at the beginning because without that being overly sold to her, overly optimistic, she may have not pulled the trigger thinking she could actually pull it off.

[00:14:40] , which is good. I’ve been doing this for so long. I’m not subject to a fresh set of eyes because I’ve seen marketing evolve so much in the last 14 years. I can re-engineer everything that I say, oh yeah, they did this because this, and this. But the only way that I got there was cuz of just time and grade.

[00:14:59] Here’s the thing that [00:15:00] I want people to hear though, that are like you that go in with the attitude of I wanna create a new business. Here are the things that have to be learnt to go with them. One, there are so many different ways to market online. Okay, you pick one. . But I think the challenge or the way to get quicker success with them is pick one topic.

[00:15:22] So we’re talking about email marketing, so it’s like, why do I do it? How do I do it? Where do I do it? And then how do I write the copy for it? How do I get to the right audience? I still have to go through all of those processes when I’m working with a new client in an industry, I don’t know.

[00:15:41] The only difference is I’ve been doing this long time so I can fast track it. . When you’re new though, you don’t know what you don’t know. So how do you actually connect the dots to get faster results? what people don’t realize is regardless if you’ve been doing this for 10 years or 10 days, the steps are still the steps.

[00:16:00] we all have to go through them, but so many people get tripped up. So they go from, I have an idea to a funnel, spend a whole bunch of time out here. But because they tried to bypass all these steps that needed to happen or the knowledge they needed to gain to make this thing successful, they end up having to go out here, spend a bunch of money, frustration, months, days, hours, and then turn around and come back and start over.

[00:16:31] because they’re like, okay, that didn’t work. Let me go back because I try to bypass all the stuff here that I should have at least got enough of [00:16:40] a foundation to connect the dots and then I would’ve got more success. But it doesn’t work that way. that’s the whole reason why I’m building the marketplace that I am, is because I want people to come back, go out there and try some will make it through, the majority will not.

[00:16:55] So when that doesn’t work, come back and let me help you build a proper foundation so you can grow the business properly. But we can’t sidestep the knowledge that we should have had to make that successful. So if you came to me and said, Audra, I’m gonna start email marketing. What do I. So yes, you’d go through, you’d find your audience, you would put checklists in place.

[00:17:19] What are your free magnets that you’re gonna give out? How are you gonna build a list? Are you using paid traffic? Are you doing it organically? Do you have blog content? How are you connecting the social media? People try to do their marketing in silos, but it’s really not, it’s all connected. , email should go to the website, which goes to the social media, which goes to how your brand is showing up.

[00:17:42] all these things are connected, but we try to treat them as individual pieces and they’re really not. if you want the system to work, the system has to be connected. and I see so many people failed just for that reason. I don’t know if I addressed what you were saying, but there’s so much that goes into that. I love

[00:18:01] BAO: what you’re saying because I think it makes a lot of sense in the end. it’s a journey and,I was pretty naive and I had the impression that, yeah, that I could, as you just said, like I could just like fast track and then go to that super amazing lunch and all this.

[00:18:16] And I feel that it was actually my journey to go through [00:18:20] this because now that I’m doing, copywriting, after doing my whole copy for six months for the whole

[00:18:25] Audra: summer ,

[00:18:26] BAO: I realize I’m not so bad at it actually, doing that much more good . So this is why I’m studying my copywriting business and I feel that this is something that is now in, yeah, my personal brand values.

[00:18:40] It’s something that I feel close to, that I really like, that I really talk about in my brand is that,I just want to empower, like the way I want to help, business owners is to, with copywriting, is to empower them to highlight and he enhance their uniqueness, their unique strengths, and so that they can start right now to have customers, like I really want to, to help them have a website copy that helps them book calls and that don’t leave any confusion or, that is simply bland and boring. and this is something that I really try to convey in the way I speak to my prospect now. And so I feel I needed to have this journey. I needed to have to go through all this to realize what are actually my values, what is the work that I wanna do here?

[00:19:28] So it’s not something that I regret, but for sure. Yeah, I think I had just a very naive approach to all this, and I just thought, as you just said, as you thought, I also come from, I studied very long,engineering and all this, and you have a very, at work I also had a very processed way to, to think.

[00:19:48] And then you think that entrepreneurship is gonna be the same. And and actually it’s not completely true. because I think like next to all the things that we can be doing, like for the [00:20:00] business, the finance and marketing and all this, there is a huge part of self-development that is, attached to it.

[00:20:07] And depending on your mindset and the way things, is gonna work or not. And I know it’s a little bit like woo already, but if you feel, for example, if I didn’t have all this insecurities about me and my abilities, because I actually, I’m not, I’m not brand new. I don’t come from university.

[00:20:22] I’m not brand new. And even people like they are successful after,finishing university, that’s, they can be successful, entrepreneurs too. But somehow I have this insecurities that I’m super new to this world, so I have to get as much knowledge as possible. When actually, if I had a little bit more trust in myself and in my abilities, maybe I wouldn’t have, had to go through all this.

[00:20:47] So this definitely belongs to my journey. And this is, yeah. This is a mess, but it is also a beautiful mess that I can learn from so

[00:20:57] Audra: well, and I, you said it spot on the mental part is just as big as the, processes. marketing and sales and running a business, you can get to a place where so much of it is automated.

[00:21:11] I can create a system for you, for any channel in marketing now. the hangup is the mental stuff. Yeah. Like you said, and I know that there’s a huge challenge between, I’m an expert and I’m the top in my field. Like you said, I’m educated, I read books. I have all kinds of professional growth.

[00:21:31] But when you transition into entrepreneurship or owning your own business, there’s a whole new set of skills you have to learn. And[00:21:40] there’s a disconnect between why should be able to step into it. Cuz I’m an. Yes, you’re an expert in being an employee and producing whatever you produced.

[00:21:50] You’re not an expert yet at running a business. And I don’t think that, we give ourselves enough grace to say, we’re in kindergarten, we’re starting over again. Yes. Maybe we’ll get through it a little bit faster because we do know our widget. or whatever expertise we’re bringing, but we’re still starting over.

[00:22:08] And you don’t learn how to run a business through osmosis. It’s going to take a minute. And you have to learn a new set of skills. You have to hold yourself accountable. You have to have the right mindset. You have to wake up. time management is massive when it comes to starting a business. how much time are you wasting trying to learn something that you can’t actually implement yet because you’re not at that stage in your business.

[00:22:33] we spend so much time walking in circles that is unnecessary. But we don’t know that because we haven’t experienced it yet. So it’s this crazy little chaotic circle that we end up walking in and then we look back and we’re like, holy cow, where’d the last year ago? I feel like I’m still at the very beginning of this race, and I’ve gotten nowhere with, I got no customers.

[00:22:58] I have a half developed product, I’ve got, half done courses, so all these little pieces, because we try to do too much too soon. And we don’t just slow down and say, okay, what is, what do I need in the launch stage? What do I need in the growth stage? And stop focusing on stuff that we don’t need yet because the media says that we do.

[00:23:18] that’s so big. Such a [00:23:20] huge challenge for us. It’s

[00:23:22] BAO: funny because I remember when I started my business, I heard everywhere that you need, I think three years. Like you cannot expect to have recurring revenues. like the first three years don’t even count about it. And on it.

[00:23:37] And then I thought three years. But what do you, what did you do in three years? It take so long, and a year later I’m just like, oh, okay. I know. I understand why it takes so long. . it might take so

[00:23:48] Audra: long. . It does take so long. And that’s the other thing with social medias, we’re not hearing those stories.

[00:23:54] We’re not hearing those. We’re hearing the loud people. That have been doing it for 10 years, or, don’t get me wrong. There are people that are able to turn this around very quickly and there occasionally you’ll get through and you’ll see those kind of successes, but the majority is not, and I guess that’s who really who we’re trying to talk to is the people that see that success and are feeling.

[00:24:20] they’re not cut out to do this. That is not the case. They should not compare themselves to the few that make it through, that are able to do this so much quicker. There’s a process. They still had to go through those steps. They still had to either pay somebody or put the time in to get it done themselves.

[00:24:40] And, we’re, one way or another we’re gonna have to do it. Maybe they didn’t do all 10 steps. Maybe they were able to, they had the right product with the right message to the right audience, and they only had to do six of the steps. mean, that’s also possible, but the thing that, that we all need to recognize is it takes time.

[00:24:58] And it takes [00:25:00] being able to, like I said, slow down and focus and say, okay, what stage am I business? Am I in? Am I in development? Am I in launch? Have I tested and validated my idea? There is a process that goes along with launching a business. . So instead of when you’re out there and it’s chaos and you just keep drawing stuff at the wall saying, okay, I’m gonna try Facebook ads, that’ll do it for me.

[00:25:26] Okay, I’m gonna hold a webinar, or I’m gonna, I’m gonna create this really valuable course, or stop for a second and just come back and say, okay, where am I outta my business? What am I trying to develop? And then what gets me from here to the next step instead of from here to the finish line. Because it doesn’t work. you could try, but you, we’ll be having this conversation later on. .

[00:25:50] BAO: I guess what is important at the very beginning is just to have the conversations with you, with clients. Yeah. To have any conversation with clients and when you hear about people who like, who are successful now, the way they started and all this, many of them also started with an internship in a company and then they realized that there was a need in all this.

[00:26:12] And I think it, it really just come to that, it’s as simple as that. Just try to get any gig, try to talk to the people, try to, Perfect, your like master you craft whatever it is, and then , eventually you will have a direction of what you know, where to go. And, and this is where you can apply all those marketing stuff then, because then also if you start to have a few clients, you already have a network and you already, you can expand that network.

[00:26:39] But if you start from [00:26:40] scratch and wanting to have all these like beautiful things, funnels and all this, it is possible and it is makeable it’s just tough and it’s really having this face when you don’t have any clients and you have no way to validate your offer is also very frustrating because at the end of the day, the material success, it counts.

[00:26:59] and it’s nice and something that people, it’s tangible. People can see it. you can talk numbers to people. They don’t understand it. But in the end of the day, like. Many of us, what they wanna achieve with their business is to help others. is to, and to also utilize, leverage their own talents to actually do something good in someone else’s life or business.

[00:27:19] So by, by the end of the day, if you don’t get any clients, you don’t get to use your talents. And then it’s really, yeah, it’s really frustrating. It’s really sad. So I guess, I don’t know, I still don’t have the big answer, , and maybe you have better insight on me then, but the way I want to approach now, my copywriting would be more to, to really start, actually, to start with what I have to go out there, to ask for people to ask for to have any experience and then, See where, the winds is blowing.

[00:27:51] The thing is also what was missing for me last year with all the things that I wanted to implement was a little bit of playfulness. Good. And I think that I needed something lighter in the way I do business. I needed that for me because in then, you never know what’s gonna work.

[00:28:09] And if you’re too much attached to the outcome, it’s Right. It’s not nice for you. And ,

[00:28:15] Audra: no, it’s not .

[00:28:17] BAO: And I just thought it would be nice to just [00:28:20] add a little bit of playfulness and to be like, what if I tried this? Let’s see how it goes without that. It’s without that I have to do a certain amount of money right now with this, So I feel, it’s so much more enjoyable doing business like this. And I feel people like feel it too,

[00:28:38] Audra: the another thing that people can try, especially if you’re not getting sales online, remember we have the whole offline ability to market to people. Yes. Go and donate your services to somebody if you don’t know where to go.

[00:28:52] Connect to your local community. Here in the US we have an organization called score, which is all volunteers. Go into your entrepreneur center, your 1 million Cups score. I don’t know if, I imagine you guys have little entrepreneur groups. , find some on Meetup and go in there and just say, look, I’m.

[00:29:14] Looking for three people that I can provide my service to for free. I wanna try it out. And in exchange for this commitment, you have to do a testimonial and you have to talk about the, where you were and the success that you got by working with me. And it doesn’t have to be long-term, there doesn’t have to be any money included in it.

[00:29:35] It’s just a way to take your expertise and start having that conversation until you actually get to have, talks with for coaches specifically, until you start to. Coach somebody, how do you know that it’s gonna work? You don’t have that feedback loop to tell you, yes, this is a good program.

[00:29:54] Yes, you can get people results and here’s the result and here’s the proof for it. So volunteer. [00:30:00] I wanna add on so part of the zindo and company Marketplace is a website called zindoconnect. And the, what it is it’s like an Upwork site. You can go there and contract with people to get work done.

[00:30:12] But, maybe a month or two ago, I decided that inside of zindolabs, which is a training site, I was going to create a barter exchange where people with no experience, but in expertise, knew or something in their business could come in and barter for services for somebody that has a different skillset.

[00:30:35] Some of the challenges at the beginning here is we don’t have the money to pay for actual talent. we can’t afford to get pay for a Facebook ads person or a, a designer or a web developer. I created a barter system, so it’s called zindoexchange. It’s free. So get in there and connect to somebody that has a skill that you’re looking for in exchange services.

[00:30:59] Do something for them that you’ve gotta talent for, and they can do something for you. There’s no reason why more businesses aren’t succeeding. There’s just absolutely no reason for it. but the challenge is our industry is very unorganized. I We, but we need to connect the dots, and that’s the whole point of this.

[00:31:17] if everybody could see what I see from doing this for so many years, you guys see a hundred steps. I can give it to you in six. And there’s no reason why access to that information is not available for everybody. It’s only available to you if you make it to the million dollars.

[00:31:34] But guess what? The majority of people don’t because they still see that hundred and they run outta [00:31:40] money or they run out of mindset and they can’t get there and there’s no reason for it. sometimes it’s just a bad product or a bad price, or the delivery is wrong. there’s still all the mechanics from that, but you can still remove all that excess stuff to get there faster, to actually have a chance to build a viable business.

[00:32:01] BAO: , I love what you’re saying and I really like, the, it sounds very good, this platform, because I feel that. when I was in my coaching training, and we had to, for each model, we had to do one free coaching to someone that was, so we were not, it’s not recommended to coach your friends and your family, So it has to be someone else. And I remember I was posting everywhere on Facebook groups,free coaching session and all this. who do you want to, do you want it? And from all those posts, I have just one answered. And what was it? some one connected to me and I was just thinking, but it is such a feeling because I also know that in other spheres, like people would have jump on it.

[00:32:40] I was just it was not, probably not just the right Facebook groups I posted, but and it’s a bit, because it’s the same with now with my copywriting skills. It’s I know there are people out there who would wanna have free copywriting, but where are they and where are they?

[00:32:59] or cheap or, and, and so I think it’s very important because it’s also, as soon as you start to gather like some experiences, it’s feels, it feels so good and it feels yeah, you are really knowing what you’re doing and you are really having this conversation and it builds up a momentum that you can use.

[00:33:16] Correct. and people feel it. And I feel that it’s really, yeah, [00:33:20] by the end of the day, You get to help other people. And, it makes you feel good, even if it’s for free for the moment. And it’s only for temporary moment. Like for a moment. Sorry. yeah. that you are, you’re doing it for free.

[00:33:35] So

[00:33:36] Audra: well, you’re also paying your dues, you’re getting experience, you’re getting feedback, which is super important, especially at the beginning. Cuz remember we build in this funnel or this closed silo that nobody else exists. And we think we know what our customers want and how they’re gonna react to it.

[00:33:55] It’s not always accurate. where we start and where we end up, which you’re living proof of is very different.

[00:34:02] I feel that also

[00:34:04] BAO: having a few clients, even if it’s non-pay, not paying clients , it really helps. This is the copywriter, in me talking to gather actually the vocabulary of your clients and actually the real problems that they’re going through, because sometimes we have an idea in mind of what we want to offer and the problem that we are addressing, but then by the time that we have worked so much on it and by the time we want to promote it and put it out in the world, then suddenly we

[00:34:35] We have all this jargon and language that is so far away from what the customer is saying right in his head that sometimes it just doesn’t, it just doesn’t fit anymore. They don’t click and Right. and this is a pity. So this is why getting clients and keeping them close to you, like in the way that you gather all [00:35:00] their words and their ideas and what they’re going through, then you can really actually capitalize on that.

[00:35:05] You can really use that for your own promotion and

[00:35:09] Audra: for, yeah. , the simplification I think is a big thing. Like you said, you have all this conversation in your head and this gotta go to this and this, and we overthink it and it’s get it out faster. Try a few different iterations of it to get to some feedback faster.

[00:35:27] when we run Facebook ads, if I run some for a client, I’m putting out my best guess. Based on experience, based on different feedback. And I do my research. don’t get me wrong, I’m not just throwing stuff up there, but I’m doing my best guess. They don’t always hit out of the park at the beginning.

[00:35:44] , sometimes I have to test headlines or test images to be able to get to a winning ad. And I have 14 years at this. So I think,I’ve mentioned before, give yourself a break. You are new. Stop being so hard on yourself and accept that, okay, I’m in first grade now. I’ve learned some stuff.

[00:36:05] I’m trying some stuff, I’m getting some feedback. And it’s just iterate, iterate until you get the right message and somebody’s willing to take their credit card out and pay you before that. It’s just your idea of something you feel the your, somebody wants. But yeah, until we close that loop, it’s.

[00:36:25] it’s not that, and you just, I think being open to learning and evolving. is super important. When I started, I started the agency doing social media and that was all I was gonna do with social media. Now in 2009, [00:36:40] things were pretty different Back then, there were no ads yet.

[00:36:42] There was nothing. We were just starting to use Twitter and stuff like that. But what I found was it forced me to learn websites because I would do social media and I would send all this new traffic, to a website. But the websites back there were just brochure sites. There were no opt-ins, there were no white papers, there were no call to actions.

[00:37:04] it was nothing if you had a site. . So then people would say, well Audra, social media doesn’t work cuz nobody’s buying anything else. because there was no system set up. So it forced me to learn how to build websites and that connected to the next thing and the next thing and the next thing.

[00:37:19] Without understanding how all the pieces work. It’s like I hand you an engine and I’m like, okay, so go drive. You’re like, where are the rest of the pieces? I need all the other parts to make this car run like it’s supposed to. And I . Yeah. I was just gonna say, that’s where we fail with marketing.

[00:37:36] I feel

[00:37:37] BAO: that what you said about you, you have to be open to evolve, is also really true. And I think it’s a really difficult balance to find between giving up too early Yeah. and being cringey with the offer that you made because you, you have the impression it is the right offer and it is gonna work and all this, and it’s really difficult because sometimes, Divine.

[00:38:02] the wind is blowing differently and you have to change direction. Yeah. But you don’t want to, and you just, like you, you just really, get tense and just want to stay the same direction because you have invested so much already in terms of money, in terms of time, because it’s, your [00:38:20] business is your baby.

[00:38:20] This offer is your baby, and you feel that you are, failing, the business or you’re failing yourself when you just give that, up or, and sometimes, sometimes you also, one tendency could be also to give up too early to be , just like you said,it’s not working, it’s been three weeks and it’s not working.

[00:38:38] So I think it’s a fine violence to find and it really depends on you and, but there’s nothing, there is nothing wrong with. like after a year, you can still say, tell me maybe a year was not enough. Maybe I didn’t try enough. Maybe I was not convinced. I actually just feel that it’s not because it’s, it, it failed or because one means failure anyway.

[00:38:59] But it’s not because I didn’t have any clients. It’s really because I feel that the coaching itself was not, was not something that was really fitting the way, first of all my time. Yeah. my time management and, because I’m a new, I’m a new mom and it’s really difficult to, yeah. I didn’t want to have one-on-one, meetings with clients.

[00:39:23] that was very fixed because I needed to be flexible in case my child is sick in case I, I am sick or whatever. And I feel that it was also not, I could feel when I was going on sales call with. Potential clients. I could feel a ball in my stomach and I didn’t want to sell my program. And this is where I knew if I don’t wanna sell my program, then there’s no point for me to actually continue doing that.

[00:39:49] And I could have tried to do another offer, but I feel that I was, I don’t know, it just didn’t fit But it’s not wrong. It’s not, there’s nothing

[00:39:57] Audra: wrong. No. How would you know that if you hadn’t gone through [00:40:00] that experience? Exactly.

[00:40:02] BAO: And yeah, I think there is a fine balance to find here.

[00:40:05] I don’t know if you have anything to tell about to your audience about that, but yeah. I feel that it’s really difficult to just know when to quit. if we quit, and what to start, what to try next, and or if it’s too.

[00:40:19] Audra: I think you, without going through the experience, you don’t have anything to reflect on.

[00:40:23] So you can say, I wanna be a coach. But then when you actually have to deliver that service, if you’re not congruent with it, it doesn’t matter how much money is there, , because you have to get up and you have to be able to say, man, I can’t wait for these calls, or I can’t wait to help this person. Or I’m so excited about doing X Now, it’s not that you’re gonna love every single part of a business, cuz I don’t, there’s so many pieces of it I don’t wanna do, but the pieces that I do wanna do, keep me connected to it.

[00:40:57] So I’ve had agency, I’ve done it all I’ve probably built 500 websites myself personally, I don’t know any coding. and I’ve done SEO and I’ve done ads and I’ve done social media and I’ve written copy and I’ve ran campaigns and emails. There are parts of it I love. There are parts of it I don’t wanna do anymore.

[00:41:15] The difference is I have enough knowledge that I can say, this is a piece of the business that I can delegate and I know what the results are supposed to look like. . I think that’s some of the challenge too.

[00:41:27] say that you did love the coaching, but you didn’t love the sales part. You could always delegate that to somebody else once you figured out the rest of it and allowed somebody else to be that part. But at the beginning, we [00:41:40] have to be almost everything regardless if we can write a check or not,

[00:41:43] It’s our responsibility as business owners to understand exactly what that successful email is, or social media or branding or whatever that piece is. It’s our responsibility to understand how that’s supposed to work, regardless if we’re the one physically doing it or not. Otherwise, how do you judge and how do you hire and how do you know that you’re spending your money effectively?

[00:42:06] some people will hire that stuff out and that’s okay. They’ve, they’re gonna write a check, but then they’re super disappointed with the results that they got and that’s also a super challenging place to be. And then they blame it on the agency or the service provider for not getting them the results.

[00:42:24] But at the end of it, it really was their responsibility, cuz they didn’t hire properly or set proper expectations to begin with. . I think it’s important that once you decide what you wanna do, you gotta play it out just like you did. And yes, it took some time and you’re fortunate enough that you had resources coming in.

[00:42:42] Some people don’t, so they may not have a year to go through that whole process. Now, if somebody had cut it back and it was a financial constraint for you, would you have waited out the year or would you have pulled the trigger earlier?

[00:42:58] BAO: I think I could have not, I think I really need to have that to go through that process.

[00:43:04] Audra: Yeah. But what if you couldn’t afford it, so you got to go through the process because you weren’t worried about the money side of. No, I was worried. I’m still worried you were okay. But,

[00:43:16] BAO: I had a side job last year. Oh, you did? Okay. A part, part-time job. [00:43:20] Okay. And this is, but I still had a little bit of pressure because to some point it didn’t fit anymore.

[00:43:26] And so I needed to quit my part-time job. And yeah. So I think I think there is no shortcut, .

[00:43:36] Audra: There is no ideas there, . And you just gotta go through it. Yeah. And

[00:43:41] BAO: I think you hacked if I, I believe that if this is what you, this is really, so this is not to say, You might invest storage in it and then end up doing something else.

[00:43:55] So it’s not to make people worry about where they are now and where they may end up and the fact that maybe they’re taking the wrong decisions. It’s not about that. It’s about the fact that you will have to go through the process and if you feel that it is something you wanna do, then you will find, like you will need to find solutions around that.

[00:44:12] , like right now, I’m trying my copywriting, business, I’m trying to set up my offer and all this and trying to network a little bit, but if it doesn’t work, I will have to apply to a corporate job again and probably in content marketing or copywriting again. But, so at least I stay in the same department, in the same field.

[00:44:32] But I’m not

[00:44:33] super thrilled about the it .

[00:44:36] When I come LinkedIn, I’m like, oh, I don’t like the corporate language. But if it’s what it takes, Right then that would be it. And you never know. Also where it brings me, before when I was transitioning from engineering to marketing, and so I had this one shot with a company and it was this one particular manager who wanted to maybe hire me.[00:45:00]

[00:45:00] But coming from 10 years plus of engineering, it’s really difficult to apply to a marketing job. because you don’t have the right experience for it. And you also, I didn’t also want to apply to a junior, and position. so I just had this one shot, and I know my friends were telling me,you should really just apply to other things.

[00:45:19] And I didn’t feel like, which is super risky, but that’s the way

[00:45:24] I

[00:45:24] function, . And then I took a job at, at the bakery, next to my, to where I was living. And I just waited for six weeks and then eventually the yes came from my manager and he wanted to hire me and this and that, but I just needed to survive in those six weeks.

[00:45:41] And of course, if I didn’t have the job, I would have found, try something else and found something else. But this is what I mean is if it’s really the path that you wanna go, , then to find a way to make it work some to some point. And I’m pretty sure, I, as I told you at the beginning, I’m not on the other side, so I cannot be the one telling you, you actually worked out this way or that way, but.

[00:46:03] But I’m here, so I’m here for it. , that’s

[00:46:06] Audra: it. You’re here. And I think out of all this conversation that we’ve just had, flexibility is probably at the top of that list, being flexible with your expectations. With your requirements, with your clients, with your deliverability and what that needs to look like?

[00:46:26] That is huge because if you are so stringent, you should go get a corporate job because there is nothing. you have an anchor right when you’re in business, cuz you have a purpose and you have a plan. [00:46:40] But we don’t get to control that plan sometimes. And if you are not flexible, boy, it will send you in a tailspin like nobody’s business and you will be looking for a job or I’m not cut out for it.

[00:46:52] And sometimes it’s not that you’re not cut out for it, it’s just you’re not being patient enough. . Or putting enough, I don’t wanna say enough, work in because everybody works hard. or the most, you’re gonna work hard. If you don’t wanna work hard, don’t be an entrepreneur. But if you put the work in, the other thing you have to have is flexibility and patience.

[00:47:10] And if you don’t have those, it will run you ragged and it will burn you out fast. , . No, it needs to happen the way I’m seeing it’s gonna happen. . Yeah. Good luck, . Oh goodness. so what last piece of advice would you give our listeners to,stay in the fight and keep going on the direction that they’re at?

[00:47:33] BAO: I think, if you feel like you, that you’re stuck, then nothing is working, of course, like being flexible, having a honest look in the mirror about, what you can do, what you can’t do, what is working, what is not working. But I would really say one thing that has always helped me,is working on my mindsets and, is really listening to other people’s stories.

[00:47:55] So not just the part where they’re successful, but , if you listen to, you look for the stories, everyone who has been successful has been a lot more of a failure for like years before they became successful. like everyone, Abraham Lincoln, everyone, youand so you just, You have tons of example.

[00:48:16] And so those stories encourage me [00:48:20] because it’s like people fight, like people had fought, depression and mental illness, whatever, like a bad marriage, a busy marriage or whatever poverty to get there where they are and if they can, then why not me in the end? And so this is really something that keeps me really hopeful.

[00:48:42] And I know it’s really, it sounds a little bit like, it’s not very tangible and it sounds oh, it’s just nice ideas like keep myself positive. But in the end, one of my big values is enthusiasm. and I feel that if you are able to find a joy and, enthusiasm in everything that you do, then.

[00:49:00] it’s already half of the battle. Like one, like it’s already something that you can get for yourself. Yes. I still don’t have client, but , until you, at least you’re happy and you are. I’m much more happy right now than in a corporate job when I would have to answer to a boss or,

[00:49:18] a schedule,

[00:49:19] a schedule or the targets of the company that I don’t find meaningful.

[00:49:24] Yeah. so that would be my piece of advice.

[00:49:28] Audra: So stick to it, . You can make it happen. Stay congruent, stay flexible. And, thank you so much for being here. Thank you too. It was a lot of fun. It was. Appreciate it.

[00:49:43] [00:50:00]


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